Fake Charity Nerd Girl

resist microstructural oppression

Posts tagged #culture war cw

worldoptimization

I was browsing a bookstore the other day and came across a Miss Manners book, from the 90s, about the culture wars. So of course I had to get it and mine it for insights to help us during our current time of strife.

There are a some things that were hot-button issues in the 90s that just feel totally resolved today. 

  • smoking. this seemed really big, like there was a time when everyone was either upset about people smoking or upset about people not wanting them to smoke. I guess the anti-smoking side just won that one
  • first names. lots of drama about when it was appropriate to call people by their first names, is it sexist/racist to call a woman/black person by their first name (because would you do that to a white man??) feel like the first names have won this.
  • swearing. again, I think this has just been resolved in favor of swearing.

And then there are some issues that are obviously still hot-button issues today:

The way race is talked about is interesting. It was clearly an issue on people’s minds back then too. But the way people were thinking and talking about it was really different: it feels like somehow people were actually talking about it in a way they don’t today? Like today there are two sides that don’t talk to each other, and one of them isn’t even talking about race, it’s talking about how you can’t talk about race. But back then there were people on both sides writing to Miss Manners not about how they were angry or exhausted but just trying to figure stuff out: black people asking how to respond to racist remarks, or white people asking how to respond to the black men who are always catcalling them (Miss Manners gently points out that race is irrelevant to this question before going on to answer it).

Workplace sexual harassment was big too. Miss Manners’ take is roughly

  • some guys are just dicks, and that’s bad
  • other problems result from misunderstanding and miscommunication around changing workplace norms, and see, this is why we never should have gone down the road of workplace informality and casual Fridays in the first place

And yeah I guess people are finally starting to come around and agree with her on that one huh.

She also takes the opportunity to lay out a clear definition of etiquette and explanation of her role:

  • “manners” = the principles underlying systems of etiquette. these are universal (eg “show respect in a house of worship,” “guests should respect a host’s home”)
  • “etiquette” = culture-specific systems of rules to express these principles (eg “take your hat off in a church”/”put a hat on in a synagogue”, “take your shoes off in a Japanese house”/”leave your shoes on in an American house”)
  • etiquette does and should change over time to keep up with other technological and social changes, but gradually (due to its culturally foundational nature)
  • Miss Manners’ role is to chronicle and explain etiquette, as well as arbitrating when changes are necessary
  • etiquette can be divided into three categories: regulative, symbolic, and ritual
  • regulative = how to resolve conflicts or adjudicate differing preferences: similar role to the law, but for situations below the level of legal involvement (who pays the check at dinner, what do you do when someone cuts you in the grocery store checkout line)
  • symbolic = rules that seem arbitrary: their purpose is to allow signaling respect/conformity or defiance by following or breaking them (what do you wear to a formal dinner or a business meeting; do you greet people with handshakes, cheek kisses, bowing, etc)
  • ritual = purpose is to “provide an aesthetically pleasing and emotionally reassuring sense of social belonging” (protocol for weddings, funerals, etc)

Examples of etiquette rules changing:

  • non-smoking becoming the default for gatherings unless all guests are comfortable with it
  • precedence for eg giving up a seat on the bus going from gender-based to purely based on age and disability

She pushes back against people who criticize her as being anti-freedom by arguing that etiquette is actually conducive to freedom. She thinks the declining respect for etiquette is in part responsible for regulatory creep and the increasing impulse to make everything bad illegal; she instead argues for keeping more minor infractions in the realm of etiquette, and enforcing etiquette by:

  • practicing it oneself
  • teaching it to one’s children
  • making admission to voluntary associations dependent on following a system of etiquette (everything from marriage and friendship to parties one hosts to clubs or professional organizations)
  • for the worst infractions, public disapproval and shaming

On political correctness:

  • PC = condemning things for being racist, sexist, or otherwise bigoted
  • this can be done appropriately or inappropriately: Good PC or Bad PC
  • her principles of good PC:
  • responses must be proportionate and consider intent, so people are not severely condemned for minor mistakes
  • a rule must first be argued for and widely accepted before you can start the public condemnation phase
  • rudeness does not justify rudeness
  • prefacing a statement with “I know this isn’t politically correct, but” does not justify rudeness
  • appropriate responses to bigotry can range from “surely I must have misunderstood” to “I beg your pardon!” to “how dare you!” to “you will be hearing from my lawyer,” depending on the severity of the situation.

Ok I also just want to quote Miss Manners in response to someone who criticized her for idealizing the past:

“Have you been paying such close attention to Miss Manners’ hairdo that you missed what she was saying? Wild horses could not drag her back to live in the past. For one thing, she has too clear a memory of what perfectly agreeable tame horses, who kindly provided public transportation in a previous era, left in the streets. There are too many things she could not live without, such as air conditioning and feminism.”

worldoptimization

I started rereading the MsScribe story for some reason and the thing that struck me the most was the way politics just … wasn’t a thing the way it is on the internet of today?

Like, there was an election coming up, and so people started talking about their political views, and it came out that a bunch of people were Bush supporters, and sure the fandom was skewed left even then but people’s reaction was more or less “oh hmm … I hadn’t really thought about what to do if this came up … like what do we do? do we just ignore this or”

when reading it the first time, I either didn’t pick up on MsScribe’s race at all or it wasn’t salient enough for me to remember, which just seems unimaginable today

worldoptimization

An interesting thing about redpill thought–and something its adherents would probably tell you distinguishes it from bluepill thought–is its focus on personal responsibility. Complaining about your husband on RPW is forbidden; your posts have to be about ways that you can improve as a partner. And I think if you commented on a PUA blog that the reason you can’t get laid is because women are bitches you’d get laughed at: regardless of whether women are bitches, the reason you can’t get laid is because you aren’t trying hard enough.

I think that mindset is part of what I find appealing about these communities. I’ve had several frustrating conversations with social justice-minded friends/acquaintances that go something like this:

me: *shares a problem I’ve been experiencing at school or work*

them: oh wow. clearly your classmates/boss/colleagues/industry is/are incredibly sexist. I’m so sorry you have to deal with that!

me: uh actually, I don’t really think that’s the issue here? I think that there are some ways I can grow as a person and I’m trying to figure out how to do that–

them: don’t blame yourself honey! this is structural oppression!!

And obviously, the “you are responsible for your own life” and “your problems are other people’s fault” narratives are both right sometimes. I think the response above would be correct if, say, I were experiencing workplace sexual harassment. Sometimes keeping a positive attitude toward your husband and becoming less demanding and more pleasant to be around is exactly what you need to make your marriage work, and sometimes he’s just an asshole and you need to dump him.

So what divides those attracted to the narrative of personal responsibility from those attracted to the blame-others narrative? Well uh, just speaking for myself, I’m an extremely privileged person. If it’s true of anyone, it’s probably true of me that most of my problems are kind of “my fault,” rather than the result of unavoidable external circumstances. And I’d guess based on any SJ-approved metric of privilege, the people in redpill communities are more privileged than those in SJ communities–in other words, the people for whom the personal responsibility narrative is most accurate/helpful.

(Of course, I’m sure both sides would object strongly to being characterized as coexisting communities for competing access needs. Either sexism isn’t real and those who claim to be held back by it are brainwashed, or all women are oppressed by sexism and those who claim otherwise are brainwashed.)

worldoptimization

There are certainly a lot of criticisms I could make about this article

But the one that stands out is that after reading it I went and read through a bunch of RPW threads and wow that subreddit is really … normal? The article characterizes it as

  • “Reddit’s most infamous MRA community” (… wait what about … r/MensRights?)
  • “chamber of bigoted secrets”
  • “violently misogynistic”
  • “hateful discussion”

but the stuff I read really just reminded me of, like, a million conversations I’ve had with other girls. “I just started a new job and guys keep hitting on me, how do I react?” “He says his best friend is a girl … is that weird?” “I got rejected by my crush and now no man will ever love me again!” It’s … well, not exactly Sex and the City, but Sex and the City if all the characters were Charlotte. Yet somehow, this is a subversive and reactionary fringe political group.

worldoptimization

I always feel guilty about things like this fb thread I saw today, which was a bunch of men arguing about feminism (basically whether you should still identify as a feminist given the number of people who say bad stuff in the name of feminism) and then a woman commented with a bunch of criticism of all the comments and added “I also think it’s ironic that not a single woman has voiced her opinion on this post yet, and it’s a bunch of males shitting on feminism as a cause.”

and her comment got a bunch of likes and supportive comments

like I’m here … I’m a woman … I agree that Everyday Feminism is cancer … but I have absolutely zero interest in having angry fb friends-of-friends ask me why I hate women so much so you’re on your own, sorry dudes

worldoptimization
worldoptimization

apparently people think math competitions for girls are sexist because they “stigmatize girls as being less talented”

like, if you take away international girls’ math competitions, what will happen is that girls will mostly not qualify for international math competitions. but I’m sure they will feel very encouraged sitting at home, watching their male peers win medals, and knowing that we as a society have taken a firm stance on gender equality

woodswordsquire

What about girls who don’t qualify for the girls competition either? And children in general who love math but aren’t at the international level?

shedoesnotcomprehend

I was heavily involved in math competitions throughout my school years, and always deeply resented the special “for girls” sections. Because, yes, they do treat girls as lesser. I would go to a middle-school competition, and there would be the real first through tenth places, and then a “top sixth grader” prize, and a “top girl” prize. Even a middle-schooler can tell what that means: sixth graders aren’t as good at math because they’re younger, so they need a consolation prize, and girls aren’t as good at math so they need one too.

I am offended that people think I need to be pandered to. I resented, even as a child, that people thought I couldn’t do as well as any boy. If I can’t earn a medal honestly, I’d rather sit at home and study for next year.

Because next year, I will win.

worldoptimization

Interesting. The “top girl” prizes never bothered me–honestly, I would always hand them out in my head anyway if the competition didn’t have one. I’d watch all the winners as they went up, note their gender, and if everyone ahead of me was a boy I’d come home and tell my parents “I was the top girl!” and they’d congratulate me and take me somewhere nice for dinner. So having an actual prize was just official recognition of that to me. I can see how it would seem like pandering, though.

But I’m not really attached to those. What I am attached to is all-girl math circles and math competitions, for partly I guess safe space reasons? Teenage boy math nerds are uh, great in their way, and I definitely had lots of fun over the years doing math stuff with them, but they can also be pretty arrogant and obnoxious and immature and also just different from me, like they were always talking about video games or whatever and had no interest in fashion or Jane Austen (my obsessions at the time). Not to mention being the only girl on a team full of guys is just kind of awkward. All-girl math spaces had no one throwing frisbees at each other, no one talking over each other or making fun of someone for not knowing a theorem, t-shirts that actually fit.

And I was one of the lucky ones–in freshman year I was the only girl on the math team, but by senior year the math team was actually like half girls and my school had articles written about how we were one of the best environments for girls in math in the country. I think one of the possible takeaways from Ellison and Swanson is that for girls to succeed in math it’s important for them to be surrounded by other girls who are into math, which is why I think arguing for the elimination of EGMO, CGMO, Math Prize for Girls, etc. in the name of feminism is counterproductive.

worldoptimization

apparently people think math competitions for girls are sexist because they “stigmatize girls as being less talented”

like, if you take away international girls’ math competitions, what will happen is that girls will mostly not qualify for international math competitions. but I’m sure they will feel very encouraged sitting at home, watching their male peers win medals, and knowing that we as a society have taken a firm stance on gender equality